Holocaust Survivor, Israeli Doctor and Former Zionist Speaks Out Against Palestinian Genocide (2)

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Aaron Maté: How do you deal with people who have been hoodwinked, I think, by cynical weaponization of antisemitism? Like, for example, in Britain there are a lot of people who are convinced that Jeremy Corbyn, the leader of the Labour Party, is an antisemite, not, I think, based on his actual record. In reality, he’s been a lifelong anti-racist, an opponent of antisemitism. His crime has been the fact that he’s also a proponent of Palestinian rights, and he is a real progressive and he threatens the neoliberal elite there. And I think if you look at the facts, you’ll see an effort to undermine him with these false charges of antisemitism. And there are many people who you could argue are acting in good faith, maybe have the same ideas that you once had as a young Zionist, the feeling that their sense of identity is being threatened. How do you advise dealing with people like that and discussing the issue with them?

Gabor Maté: Well, insofar as it is a discussion at all, I would say to the: “You know what, you’re totally right to be worried about antisemitism—and racism in general. There’s a lot of racism in this world. There’s anti-Muslim racism, there’s anti-Roma racism, there’s anti-black racism, obviously, and there’s antisemitism. And whenever there’s a crisis in society, racism sharpens. So, there’s genuine antisemitism.” For example, I went on a TV program, a British TV program, now that you’re talking about Britain, where I talk about Corbyn’s non-antisemitism. And a commentator on the website writes—and I mentioned I used to be a Zionist, I’m not a Zionist anymore—he says, in one comment writes, “Oh yeah, he used to be a Zionist, but now he realized it was a sinking ship so he jumped like a rat.” You know, now, to that particular person, it doesn’t matter what a Jew does, it’s wrong. That’s an antisemite. In other words, there was a Roman emperor once, a very famous story, where he’s proceeding through Rome and this Jew greets him, you know, does him honor. And the emperor says, “Punish him. How dare this Jew draw attention to himself in the presence of a Roman emperor?” A few steps later another Jew, having heard this one, doesn’t greet when he sees the emperor, and the emperor says, “Punish him. How does a Jew not acknowledge the presence of the emperor of Rome?” And when people around him ask him, “Well, how can you have it both ways?”, he said, “You see, you don’t understand. To me it doesn’t matter what the Jew does. It is the very fact of the Jewishness that I hate.” Now that’s an antisemite.

So, you have to acknowledge it, and you have to acknowledge the Pittsburgh massacre [synagogue shooting] and then you have to say: “Yes, there’s antisemitism in the world. Let’s actually look at where it’s coming from and let’s actually look at what it means. And can you criticize a Christian without being anti-Christian? Can you criticize a British political leader without being anti-British? Can you criticize an American political leader or a policy without being anti-American? Can you criticize an Albertan policy without being anti-Albertan? Then at least you have to concede the fact that it’s possible to criticize Israeli policy without being an antisemite. And, why don’t you, if you really want to open yourself, listen to the Israelis who’re critical of their own government’s policy?”

There’s a new book in the States now, just read about in The Nation magazine, about the new Jewish movement to reclaim Judaism from the mainstream organizations who have totally identified Judaism with Israel. And this new book by a Jewish author, a professor in the States, is about the Jewish movement to reclaim Judaism from Zionism, and actually ground Judaism in the prophetic social justice tradition that’s very much a huge basis of Jewish tradition. And so that’s how you talk to them. You first of all acknowledge that they have a genuine concern and then you separate that concern from the actual reality, and you also point out just how manipulative it is to call Corbyn an antisemite. Corbyn goes to a rally where a former concentration camp survivor, a Jew says, not for the first time, that we don’t have the right to do to others what was done to us, that this is similar, you know. I’m not saying that this is genocide, but that the injustice and the oppression…….

A. M.: Yes, and the ghettoization of the Gaza Strip, especially.

G. M.: Ghetto, yes.

A. M.: It’s very much akin to what occurred.

G. M.: So Corbyn goes to this rally where this Jewish person speaks, and Corbyn’s accused of being an antisemite because he’s present when a Jew criticizes or points out the similarities in the ghettoization of Gaza and the ghettoization of Jews. So, it’s false. You have to ask people to actually look at facts, just open their consciousness and open their hearts to the actual humanity of it. You know, it takes tremendous denial not to see the facts about Israel-Palestine.

A. M.: Let me ask you about one dynamic that the author and scholar Norman Finkelstein has written about, which I find very fascinating.

G. M.: Yes.

A. M.: Where he talks about Israel as not just being identified with Jewish identity, but also especially in an American context with assimilation into the power structure and the desire accordingly to hold onto that by defending Israel. And he’s speaking specifically of the period after 1967. We talked earlier about Vietnam in 1967 where, you know, after 1967 when Israel smashed Arab nationalism and captured territory, Israel’s stock went up in the eyes of the US government, and all of a sudden Israel then became a very favored ally. And accordingly, Finkelstein says that before ’67, Israel did not play a very big role in the North American Jewish community. It did after 1967. And so part of what he’s pointing out there is that, in fact, when Jews that are celebrating Israel and tying themselves to it, after 1967, they’re not just embracing what they believe is a reflection of their Jewish identity, they’re actually reinforcing their assimilation into the U.S. power structure, because identifying with Israeli power also means identifying and reinforcing American power.

G. M.: Yes, well, Norman Finkelstein as always is a very astute observer who’s paid very heavily for his advocacy of reality in the Israel-Palestine conflict. And it’s true, Zionism did not used to be the mainstream movement amongst American Jews. In the 30s it was a minority movement. In the 40s after the horrors of the Holocaust and the establishment of Israel, there was more and more identification with and concern for Israel, but the identification didn’t become so strong and solidified until after ’67. And once America embraces Israel, then those Jews that really want to assimilate in American society and become a part of American society embrace Israel as well, just as Norman says, not only out of their Jewish identification with the Jewish state but also with the identification with the American state and its interests and its ideological concerns. So, yes, I can only support what he said there. Which makes it all the more inspiring, that so many young Jews actually are breaking with that, with that tendency. That the really is, really an increasing movement amongst young Jews to look at the truth here and to separate themselves from their elders’ identification.

I wrote about this in ’67 – once I researched the war, I just wrote an article for a local paper saying Israel started this war, quite deliberately. Doesn’t matter how it looks in the media. This is what was going on. My dad kicked me out of our house. Your grandfather booted me out of our house.

A. M.: I never knew he was that political.

G. M.: Well, he was.

A. M.: On that issue, I guess.

G. M.: He was survivor of forced labor in the Second World War and, you know, a survivor of genocide. And, so, it’s totally natural. And to his credit, to the end of his life, in his 70s he actually became a critic of Israel. He actually joined an organization called Jews For a Just Peace.

A. M.: That was, like, ten Jews in Vancouver.

G. M.: Well, it began with ten Jews in Vancouver.

A. M.: Who were critical of the occupation, I remember that.

G. M.: Yes, but what I’m saying is there’s been a sea change. So those of us that are older, we remember what was like to be totally isolated in our communities for daring to speak out against the injustices visited on the Palestinians. Now there’s a large movement of young Jews who are very vocal and very active, and it’s getting larger and larger. So, I think two aspects are taking place. One is that, as the generations that identify their history so much, with the Holocaust, get older and new generations arise, they have less fear. People are acting less out of fear. And two is the contradictions of this society, in American society and American global empire becoming more and more clear to people. That also shows light on Israel-Palestine conflict, it’s terrific to see. I’m not sure what question I’m answering anymore.

A. M.: Well, let me ask you just to talk more about that as to what extent do you think fear and trauma drive the conversation about the Israel-Palestine issue, and drive, you know, heavy political conversations in general and how to overcome that.

G. M.: Well, that would be a really interesting conversation to have. But I’m now researching my next book, and one of the aspects that’s becoming clear, is that fear from generation is actually passed on to the next generation. And it actually affects the physiology of the next generation, and fears are one of the most powerful human drivers. So, politicians know that, that’s why they appeal so much to people’s fears. But it also means that as people liberate themselves from fear, they’re less likely to identify with political causes that are rooted in fear. So, I think as we move, as generationally we move further away from the horrors of the Holocaust, we’re going to see more and more Jews disidentifying in a healthy way. And, by the way, you know, the other point about antisemitism is, when the Zionist says that Israel is the Jewish state, in other words, the state of the Jews and what we’re doing is in the name of the Jews, well, then somebody who’s critical of that, makes an antisemitic statement.

A. M.: Yes.

G. M.: That, in itself, is an antisemitic statement, and at least it invites antisemitism. A book that you didn’t read but I did, had a huge impact on my generation, it was called Exodus by Leon Uris, and it was a novel that gives the shrillest Zionist interpretation to history.

A. M.: Yes.

G. M.: The name of the hero of the book is Ari Ben Canaan, and he’s an Aryan-looking Jew. He’s a Jew that doesn’t look like a Jew, and…….

A. M.: It fulfills the fantasy of being the tough Jew…….

G. M.: The tough one…….

A. M.: The one who didn’t perish in the Holocaust.

G. M.: The tough, non-Jewish-looking Jew. Yes, that’s it. That’s to me, a self-hatred, that you have to look like an Aryan in order to be a heroic Jew, you know. And it’s interesting that same author writes a book called Mila 18, which is about the Warsaw Ghetto. That book was a total rip-off of a much better book called The Wall, by John Hersey. But the hero that is another Jew that looks like an Aryan gets away with not looking like a Jew! And I talk about it because I identified so much with that, so there was an element of self-rejection, you know, in that I had to be tough and I have to reject who the Jew is, in order to be a real Jew, you know. So, it’s a complicated business, people need to really think for themselves, and to look at their emotions, including what emotions are driving their position on a certain political issue, because very often emotions are far more powerful in politics than the actual content.

A. M.: Well, we’ve done that with Russiagate in our last conversation, we’ve done that now with antisemitism, and I look forward, Dad, to doing more with you, exploring that very dynamic when it comes to politics and how we interact with it. Gabor Maté, thank you very much.

G. M.: Thank you for having me.

yogaesoteric
December 9, 2023