Transcript of Jeffrey Sachs’ Interview on The Tucker Carlson Show (3)
The recent interview given by Professor Jeffrey Sachs to American journalist Tucker Carlson manages to shed light on the most feared conflicts of today: Russia – Ukraine, but also the new attacks launched by Israel on Iranian territories.
Read the second part of the interview
Iran: The Next Target
Tucker Carlson: But it all goes back to the same route. And the last country on that list, as you said at the outset, is Iran.
Jeffrey Sachs: That’s it.
Tucker Carlson: We were hearing this week that Iran is just weeks away from building a nuclear weapon. And so we need to take out the nuclear sites. We need to effect regime change in Iran. I feel like I’ve been hearing that Iran is weeks away from nuclear weapon. For at least 25 years.
Jeffrey Sachs: Yes, for at least a decade and for longer in substance, yes.
Tucker Carlson: Is Iran weeks away from building a nuclear weapon? Does Iran want a nuclear weapon? Will Iran get a nuclear weapon? What is the truth about Iran?
The Reality About Iran’s Nuclear Program
Jeffrey Sachs: Iran does not want a nuclear weapon. Iran’s neighbors, like the Saudis and others in the Gulf, do not want Iran to have a nuclear weapon. Iran’s major ally, Russia, does not want Iran to have a nuclear weapon. And Iran doesn’t want a nuclear weapon. But Iran does not want to be defeated militarily by Israel, does not want to be bombed to hell by Israel, and does not want to be sanctioned to death economically by the United States, which the US has been doing now for endless years.
So Iran has said for 10 years, 11 years, 12 years, unequivocally: “We don’t want a nuclear weapon. We want an agreement with you. We want you to lift sanctions. And we want a no nuclear system and with all verifications and monitoring and safety as well. We want to have our nuclear power plants. We want our own military. We’re not going to disarm in a region where Israel attacks every country in the region and by the way, where we have other enemies as well. So we are not going to unilaterally disarm in our region, but we do not want a nuclear weapon.” The truth is that has been known for a dozen years in detail at the highest levels.
Tucker Carlson: So what’s the problem? That seems like a pretty good basis for an agreement.
Jeffrey Sachs: The problem, there is no problem in reaching a sound agreement. And by the way, with the nuclear power plants, which are in dozens of countries, the IAEA, the International Atomic Energy Agency, has successfully monitored and set up absolutely rigorous monitoring. And Iran is open to that and has said so repeatedly and has said it would work with the neighbors on the fuel supply chains and all the rest. There is no obstacle to this. And I think we’re close to an agreement with Iran, in fact, thanks to President Trump, because Netanyahu says: “No, we need to bomb the hell out of them. We need to defeat them like we defeated Saddam and Assad and Gaddafi. We need to take out this evil regime.” That’s his line.
Tucker Carlson: So it’s not about nukes, that’s what you’re saying. You’re saying it’s not about nukes. It’s about regime change.
Jeffrey Sachs: I think so, for sure. And that’s been true all along.
The Media Narrative vs. Reality
Tucker Carlson: So why not just say that? Why lie? Why does Fox News tell me – not that I have a TV, but I hear Fox News is telling everyone every day that Iranians are moments away from having the nuclear weapon. ‘We cannot allow Iran to have a nuclear weapon’ – day after day after day. Why not just say…….
Jeffrey Sachs: I believe that’s true, and Iran would agree with that. Fine, yes, that’s what we’re saying.
Tucker Carlson: But if you went on television right now, if you were back on your old perch in Morning Joe and you said: Actually, ‘Iran doesn’t want a nuclear weapon’, they would accuse you immediately of being an agent of Iran.
Jeffrey Sachs: They might, because maybe someone would tell them in their little earpiece to say that, because that’s how it works.
Tucker Carlson: But you’re saying that’s true. I mean, you’re acting like that’s like a non controversial statement. Iran doesn’t want the nuclear bomb. They’ve said they don’t, they just don’t want to get attacked.
Jeffrey Sachs: They have said for years: Remove our sanctions, normalize relations, stop trying to overthrow us. Tell your bulldog Israel to stop threatening us with war and we can have perfectly normal relations. And we don’t want a nuclear weapon. It’s a much bigger headache than we want. We don’t want it.
Tucker Carlson: That is not the story that any American news channel tells ever.
Jeffrey Sachs: I’m shocked. We live in the world of narratives. You know, for many years the Iranians were asking: “How do we reach the Biden White House? How do we want to open up channels? We want to negotiate.” Of course they wouldn’t talk to them. We know the situation of the President now. I mean, we knew then, but now it’s confirmed. The President wasn’t in any shape to talk to anybody. And the administration was the biggest foreign policy failure one can imagine. But the Iranians have been saying all along: “We want to negotiate.” And as soon as President Trump was elected, at least I got inquiries. “Do you know anyone in the White House? Do you know anyone in the President’s team? How can we make contact?” That’s not the behavior you make if you’re relentlessly trying to get a nuclear bomb.
Iran’s True Intentions
Tucker Carlson: So what about the story that you hear endlessly that Iran is planning to nuke the United States? That that’s on their agenda.
Jeffrey Sachs: Huh?
Tucker Carlson: Yes, right. So you consider that like insane.
Jeffrey Sachs: I consider that so bewildering. If a grown up says that, we need to have a long heart to heart talk about a lot of facts. But that is simply the most absurd imaginable idea. Iran, by the way, is a civilization of, by usual count, 5,200 years. Persia is the usual name given for Iran.
Tucker Carlson: Oldest continuous civilization in the world.
Jeffrey Sachs: Yes, it’s arguably the longest continuous civilization, though many jump up and say: No, we are. Maybe the Georgians say it or the Egyptians say it. So I won’t get into arguments among my friends, except this is actually a great civilization that has lasted for 5,000 years. They’re not going to bring it to an end by bombing the United States and having Persia or Iran disappear from the world map, literally, physically, by atom, by atom, by such an attack. So it’s not.
The Iranian Threat and Historical Context
Tucker Carlson: So why are we going through all this? I mean, the attention, the full attention of huge parts of the US Government, billions and billions and billions, trillions, over the years, of American tax dollars have gone to responding to this threat. We have bases all around the region all focused on Iran, which we maintain, including a huge one in Qatar, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. All of this effort by the United States focused on this Iranian threat that you claim doesn’t exist.
Jeffrey Sachs: Remember that Iran was a democratic country. In 1953, the Prime Minister at the time named Mossadegh had this absolutely outlandish idea, which was that the oil under their ground belonged to Iranians. This was a very weird idea because the British knew it belonged to the British. The Americans expected that it belonged to the Americans in the new age. And so CIA and MI6 overthrew the Iranian democracy. Then we installed a police state known as the Shah of Iran and SAVAK, it’s supposed intelligence and enforcement authority from 1953 to 1978 when the Shah was dying of cancer and he was a hated figure in Iran. Jimmy Carter was talked into taking him into the United States and that provoked the reaction of taking American hostages in Iran. And the Iranian revolution was taken badly by the United States. But Iran had been our fortress. And why Iran? Because this was part of our anti Soviet effort. This was part of our Cold War effort. So Iran turned from police state ally to America’s foe and Israel’s foe. And by the way, in 1980, and 1981 in particular, the United States armed Saddam Hussein massively to go kill Iranians. So we told Iraq: Go invade Iran. And we supported an absolutely bloody, disastrous war between Iraq and Iran. We liked it. It was the two scorpions fighting in the bottle, killing each other.
Tucker Carlson: Fought in part by children.
Jeffrey Sachs: Yes, on the American dime. So our position towards Iran has been an aggression since 1953, actually. Remember, the American deep state doesn’t care about any other people at all, whatever occurs to them. It doesn’t care about the Ukrainian people, it doesn’t care about the people we’re, quote, “saving.” It cares about whatever fight it’s in. The fight might be against Russia, in which case the Ukrainians are used. The fight might be for Israel, in which case some other jihadists are used. Whatever.
Tucker Carlson: Or the Kurds.
Jeffrey Sachs: The Kurds, or whoever is convenient at the time. So Iran is kind of amazingly incurring this for 75 years and for the last dozen years saying: “Peace, come on, make peace.” President Trump is close to it right now. Again, as in all the other cases we have been discussing, the deep state narrative is deep. It’s long standing. It’s not shallow. It’s pretty much empty. It’s pretty much concocted, but it’s deep. And so, in order to overcome the deep state – in this case, it’s the Israel or Zionist lobby, because it’s got a pretty complicated domestic heritage and base – in order to overcome what has been 20 years of wars of choice in the Middle East, and to stop them, it requires a lot of political capital and attention by President Trump. Just like in Ukraine, he’s on the right track, but he’s getting attacked by everybody for being on the right track, and he’s trying to express America’s real interest. America cannot have a war with Iran, by the way. It would lead to a regional war. It would be costly, bloody, threatening. And on January 17th of this year, Iran signed a security agreement with Russia. So it would just open up another front of potential nuclear war. President Trump is smart. He’s trying to avoid this. Everyone’s shouting at him: “Don’t avoid it. Go to war.” And for the president to prevail, he has all the authority he needs. But this noise is incessant. And the arrogance of a Lindsey Graham or the American Congress that thinks we can do whatever we want, wherever we want and win whenever we want, when everything has been trillions of dollars of cost in one disaster after another, that arrogance actually continues until today. It’s not fear, it’s arrogance. That’s the fundamental driver.
America’s Military Track Record
Tucker Carlson: They haven’t won a war in 80 years, so the US military has not won a war in 80 years. So I’m not attacking anyone. I say that with sadness, but I don’t understand on what basis this optimism arises.
Jeffrey Sachs: The optimism is misplaced, let us say, because these people have gotten us into one debacle after another. And if, you know, when Lindsey – I’m going to pick on Lindsey Graham again, because he’s been the biggest warmonger in the Senate – when he speaks, if there were little logos on the screen: “Iraq war supporter”, people understood: “So this guy’s wrong five wars in a row, then, okay, we let him speak and let everyone understand.” This guy gets it wrong every single time. And that’s true of most of these warmongers. But I think this will continue, unfortunately, as long as we don’t have peace a little bit further to the west of Iran, and that is why we need Israel and Palestine, two states living in peace, and not this plan, this “clean break” that is breaking us for 30 years. In other words, the harder work even than avoiding the war with Iran is the United States finally telling Israel: “Come on, there’s a limit. You reached it, you exceeded it.” Those words need to be uttered, and they haven’t been uttered to this day. 53 million deaths of women and children and everyone else. The United States needs to say: “You crossed the line.”
Tucker Carlson: Say that to the Prime Minister of Israel.
Jeffrey Sachs: Say that to the Israeli people and to the Prime Minister: “We no longer support this.” And that’s hard in American politics.
Tucker Carlson: Why?
The Middle East Peace Solution
Jeffrey Sachs: It’s hard because the narrative for decades has been the opposite. Because Americans don’t understand how much we have paid for these terrible, absurd, deadly Israeli led or provoked or desired wars. And because there are deep beliefs and misunderstandings about the region that are just reproduced and replicated over time. Again, just like Iran, I deal every day with diplomats from around the world. It’s my privilege and good luck that I speak with leaders all over the Middle East. For example, in Egypt, in Saudi, in Jordan, in Turkey, in Iran. All over the Middle East. They have said to me for years and years and years: “If there is a state of Palestine alongside the state of Israel, we normalize relations with Israel. We of course, support the mutual security of the two states. We do business, we do everything.” And they have said that not only privately, to me, at length, explaining the situation, but publicly in what’s called the Arab Peace Initiative, which goes back to 2002. So it’s been 23 years where the Arab states have been saying this clearly.
Jeffrey Sachs: When Israel says there’s no one to talk to, there’s everyone to talk to. Everyone wants peace, quiet and economic development, believe it or not. They want to live their lives. They want their children to grow up. They actually want to have building, construction. They’re worried about their physical lives, their jobs, everything. And they want peace. And they know that there can’t be economic development unless there’s peace. So if you ask: Why is it? There is no deep reason why there isn’t two states living peacefully side by side. The idea “Hamas, Hamas!!!” This is a narrative, this is a gimmick, this is a lie. Hamas would go the first day, if the United States said, “Yes, we support a Palestinian state, but it’s got to be peaceful, it’s got to be disarmed”. That’s fine. Everyone agrees with this, no one disagrees with this. But what we don’t hear and get an explanation of – and this is what people need to understand – Netanyahu’s completely uninterested in that. Totally, totally uninterested in that. He doesn’t say: “Oh, we need to defeat Hamas, then there can be a Palestinian state.” No, of course not. Because that’s fundamentally not the idea. Fundamentally the idea is: We defeat Hamas. We rule. Of course we rule. This is ours!
The Practical Reality on the Ground
Tucker Carlson: But the problem is – leaving aside who’s right, who’s wrong, the philosophical and moral justifications for this or that policy – there are millions of people living there.
Jeffrey Sachs: Well, that’s the point. Exactly.
Tucker Carlson: Right? So as a practical matter, what do you do with them? I mean, even people get caught up in, like, 1947 and, you know, settlers from Eastern Europe and they’re mad about this. You could ignore all history and folk, just pretend the world started January 1, 2025, and you’ve got millions of people living there. What are you going to do with them? I don’t understand.
Jeffrey Sachs: You are so correct. There are 8 million Jews, there are 8 million Palestinian Arabs.
Tucker Carlson: So what’s the plan? I just want to know what the plan is.
Jeffrey Sachs: The plan?
Tucker Carlson: You can’t get to the plan the second you ask. It’s like: Oh, you’re working for Qatar.
Jeffrey Sachs: The answer is simple. The plan is something else. The answer is simple. Two places, one for the Palestinians, one for the Israelis. That’s simple and it’s not even hard. And I’ve had generals from Israel recently telling me: “No, it’s not even a security issue. And here’s how the borders go and all the rest.” The plan is: how do you overcome the remaining US complete intransigence on this. That’s the issue.
America’s National Interest
Tucker Carlson: But why do we care? It’s in our interest. So that’s what’s confusing. We don’t have an inherent national interest there. There’s no oil there, for example. It’s not like it’s an energy concern for us. So why do we care and what are the options? What do you do with 8 million people? You can’t send them somewhere. What are they thinking?
Jeffrey Sachs: You said the magic word. And I hope that President Trump gets this, because it’s his core philosophy. Peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians is America’s interest. Again, not even on moral grounds, just the most practical grounds. Keep us out of nuclear war, keep us out of regional war, have economic development, build, have business, everything, have normalization.
Tucker Carlson: No more 9/11s. Osama bin Laden said that he planned 9/11 in part because of what was going on between Israel and the Palestinians and America’s support for Israel. Now, no one wanted to hear that. They called you names if you said it. I’m not on Osama bin Laden’s side, obviously. I totally disapprove of Osama bin Laden, but that’s a fact. So why would we want to expose ourselves to more of that? Why not try and get this fixed?
Jeffrey Sachs: This is the key to every issue we’re talking about. What is America’s national interest in the context of Ukraine and Russia? Is it for Ukraine to be blowing up Russian strategic bombers, or is it for Ukraine to be a neutral country without NATO? It’s the second. What is America’s national interest vis a vis Iran? It is no nuclear weapons in Iran and peace, no war. What is America’s interest in Israel and Palestine? It is 8 million Palestinians for Palestine and 8 million Israelis living in Israel in peace. And please, if I could say it this way: “Shut up a little bit. No more wars that were dragged into you guys. Just live.” That’s America’s real interest.
So if the President follows through on America’s national interest, not on the grandiosity that we can do anything we want, anywhere we want, because we are the United States of America and our mission is to defeat Russia, or our mission is to defeat Iran, or our mission is Greater Israel, if we follow the American national interest, it’s absolutely straightforward what to do. It is no war with Iran and negotiated treaty. It is two states, Israel and Palestine. It is a neutral Ukraine. President Trump has all of that close, close at hand, but everyone requires his attention. This is hard because every one of them confronts a narrative that’s 30 years old or 50 years old, that is deeply entrenched, that is fundamentally based on the premise that America can do what it wants anywhere in the world because it’s all powerful.
At the core of everything, Tucker, is a kind of arrogance of power that has been proved to be wrong from Vietnam, Afghanistan, Libya, Sudan, Somalia, Syria, Iraq. It’s not that we’re hopeless and helpless. And I’m not defeatist in that way. I’m saying that if you choose the wrong battles, you can’t win those battles. If you choose battles that are not in America’s interest, you’ll go away because they’re not. Afghanistan wasn’t fundamentally in America’s interest, or Iraq wasn’t fundamentally in America’s interest, or Ukraine wasn’t fundamentally in America’s interest. And by the way, that’s also not isolationism. That’s just being smart, prudent, normal, and also recognizing: Don’t be so afraid. Our only risk in the United States, honestly – now we know it’s not the UFOs, that was a concocted issue of the Air Force – our only risk is a nuclear war. Stay clear of a nuclear war, please. Stay clear of these ultimate confrontations. Don’t fight Russia to the end. It’s a great power. You can live side by side with it. Same with China. Come on, just be normal and we can have secure, prosperous lives for all of us.
Tucker Carlson: When you overstate your power, your power evaporates. The US is so much less powerful than it was before the invasion of Afghanistan.
The Current State of Global Risk
Jeffrey Sachs: We are so much more risk objectively than we were before. And anyone that measures risk, I often refer to this Doomsday Clock of the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, which says we’re closer to nuclear Armageddon than ever before in human history. This is crazy. We should be as far away. I was there. As I said in the Kremlin in December 1991, the Doomsday Clock was 17 minutes away from midnight because we have peace. Now we’re 89 seconds to midnight. Are you kidding? How did we squander this? Because we did so many Israeli provoked wars, because we had to expand NATO to Russia’s border, blah, blah, blah. None of this is for America’s interest. And it’s objectively the case.
Qatar’s Role in American Media and Politics
Tucker Carlson: Let me ask you one last question. You said that most of the storylines, the narratives are 30 years old, and I think that’s exactly right. It does feel like it could be 1995 again. But there is one new one, and that is Qatar. Very small Gulf state, wholly within Saudi, I think the largest natural gas field in the world, biggest American air base in the region. That country is like a powerful enemy of the United States and is controlling America’s media, controlling America’s higher education system and that most bad things and all bad opinions come from Qatar and Qatari propaganda. Are you familiar with this argument?
Jeffrey Sachs: Not quite, but I am familiar with Qatar, yes.
Tucker Carlson: So what do you assess Qatar’s role in the United States? Are they controlling our media, do you think?
Jeffrey Sachs: I don’t lose sleep over it, to tell you the truth. I haven’t heard it put exactly that way. I’ve been going to Qatar for a while. They gave the President a nice plane, and it’s not a danger to the American people. You know, if we were to calm down a little bit, we actually could have all the safety in the world we want. This is really, this is actually the truth. If we drop our angst on big bad Russia – actually we didn’t have a chance to talk about it this time. Maybe another time – big bad China, which is also not going to invade the United States, not going to threaten us, not going to go to war with us. They’re trying to deal with aging and they’ve got their declining population and many other issues. Not that they’re falling apart. It’s a very impressive civilization, but they’re not a threat to the United States, honestly. And Iran is not a threat. And now I’ll add another country that’s not threat: Qatar. And by the way, there are 193 UN member states and I would say 192 of them are not threats to the United States if we just behave with some prudence and don’t get ourselves edging towards the nuclear war.
Tucker Carlson: Jeffrey Sachs, thank you very much.
Jeffrey Sachs: Great to be with you.
yogaesoteric
July 18, 2025
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